Monday, January 27, 2014

The Tyranny of Dilutions

I posted on Facebook under miniature horse and Pony Questions the following.
I have a little stallion that I put up for sale. One of the FB friends who looked at him said he could be perlino because he has blue eyes and pink skin. His sire is a blue roan and his dam I thought was buckskin but now have been told she may be ":silver black she has that chocolately color with blonde and brown in her mane and tail. But it may just be the lighting. " I have posted photos of both sire and dam, and their parents too. Please help me figure this out. If I were to do DNA, what would I test for other than Cr (dilution creme) or E (black)?
And by the way if you look at he mom (GrapeNuts) she has dappling and I know her sire, Gatsby, was dappled also.
UPDATE: This PERLINO PINTO has the following:
EE - two black genes       Aa- one Agouti               zZ - one silver dilution gene
CrCr - two cream dilution genes and at least one Tobiano (did not test for this)

I also provided the following photos:

This is Toad Hill's Fancy Honey Grahams.

Blue eyes

Pink skin


My question is what color is this stallion?

I thought he was palomino, however above I have learned this was incorrect.

The comments also made me wonder just exactly what color is he?

What should I test for?

  • Rhia Justask I'd say he has the cream gene....perlino..maybe?

  • HiddenDale Farm Wow, he is a pretty boy! If you do testing I would test for cream, black, and agouti (bay). You know he carries some sort of pinto pattern. Mom looks like a really smutty buckskin and dad looks like blue roan, but he would have to carry cream as well for your boy to look like that. He is definitely a double cream dilute with a pinto gene. Just not sure whether he is perlino or smokey black. Is your boy parent qualified?

I also posted photos of his dam: Toad Hill's GrapeNuts and a photo of her other foal from the same breeding. The filly is Toad Hill's Honey Nuts.

 Comments from Facebook:

  • Rhia Justask I think the red tint is cause by sun bleaching her black mare has it too late in her mane towards the ends gets real bleached from the sun.
    4 hours ago · Unlike · 1

  • Leia Gibson I would have said sunbleached buckskin in the other photo, but knowing her sire is silver dapple and seeing that even the roots of her mane and what you can see of her points don't look black here I'm thinking silver buckskin or silver bay or even smoky silver black. Can you post clipped and unclipped photo, or winter coat versus summer?

Graham's sire is Boone's Buckero Fancy Pants...who I thought was just a solid, blue roan. NOT!!!

<-- To the left is Megabucks, sire to Fancy Pants above.  Megabuck's sire is Boone's Little Buckeroo.

To further muddy the waters now here are photos of GrapeNut's sire: Toad Hill's the Great Gatsby.

 These photos do not show the dapple coloring that Gatsby has developed over time.
There were also at least 22 additional comments on the main album page.
These comments follow below and were taken from Facebook on January 27, 2013:

  • Melinda Selk If I remember right, the sire is a buckeroo son or grandson corrrect?? if so he could be a smokey blue roan and carrying the cream gene. Dam is an obvious silver buckskin so she does carry cream. Your boy def. looks to be a double dilute. The cream gene, red/black factor, and agouti are the tests needed to determine which one. ee, (aa, aA, AA), CRCR= cremello, (eE, EE), aa, CRCR=Smokey Cream, and (eE, EE), (aA, AA), CRCR=Perlino. All the groups in parentheses can be any of those to still be that color.
    4 hours ago · Like · 3

  • Melinda Selk Hope that made sense

  • Denise Miller Hinman and they will list that.

  • Toad Hill Minis What other than black (E, creme (CR cr) and possibly agouti?

  • Melinda Selk You could test for Tobiano, I would recommend testing for LWO to be safe, could test for splash/sabino too just because dam has face marking and jagged edges, since it is hard to tell what markings the colt has.

  • Toad Hill Minis This is another foal (filly) from the same breeding of Fancy Pants and GrapeNuts.

  • Kristin Appleby yes I'd go with perlino
    4 hours ago · Like · 2

  • Kristin Appleby pali has dark skin and if it is a Pali pinto the dark skin would be where the color is

  • April Meckes Yea mom looks buckskin to me and daddy looks like a bay roan . Blues don't have that dark of a body unless winter coat.

  • Toad Hill Minis Here is a spring photo of Fancy Pants...will post a few more

  • Toad Hill Minis Fancy Pants in November...this is what he looked like when I bought him.

  • Toad Hill Minis This was early spring, just shedding.

  • Melinda Selk Yep I stick with my original comment that sire carries a cream gene. the other baby you posted is also def. a double dilute, looks possibly smokey cream.
    4 hours ago · Like · 2

  • Toad Hill Minis June photo of Fancy Pants...don't you just love the color changes on roans?
    4 hours ago · Like · 1

  • Melinda Selk Yes roans are fun since they have so many 'seasons' LOL!
    4 hours ago · Like · 1

  • April Meckes Wow the one pic he looks blue but the rest still bay. Roans are weird for sure! I have a blue roan mare. She goes from dark black to grey. But always keeping her dark points. With black mane and tail
    3 hours ago · Like · 1

  • Leia Gibson To produce a baby like that both parents MUST carry creme so there is no question GrapeNuts has a creme gene. She _might_ be a smoky silver black with sunbleaching (her sire was silver dapple for sure) but more likely she's silver buckskin or buckskin....See More
    2 hours ago · Unlike · 1
    Toad Hill Minis I tried the Coat Color Calculator using the suggestions from is what I get as possible offspring the of the parents:Offspring Color Probability 

    6.25% - Palomino Roan Tobiano

    6.25% - Palomino Tobiano
    4.69% - Buckskin Roan Tobiano
    4.69% - Silver Buckskin Roan Tobiano
    4.69% - Buckskin Tobiano
    4.69% - Silver Smoky Black Tobiano
    4.69% - Silver Smoky Blue Roan Tobiano
    4.69% - Smoky Black Tobiano
    4.69% - Smoky Blue Roan Tobiano
    4.69% - Silver Buckskin Tobiano
    3.13% - Chestnut Roan Tobiano
    3.13% - Chestnut Tobiano
    3.13% - Cremello Roan Tobiano
    3.13% - Cremello Tobiano
    2.34% - Blue Roan Tobiano
    2.34% - Silver Bay Tobiano
    2.34% - Black Tobiano
    2.34% - Bay Tobiano
    2.34% - Perlino Roan Tobiano
    2.34% - Bay Roan Tobiano
    2.34% - Silver Bay Roan Tobiano
    2.34% - Smoky Cream Tobiano
    2.34% - Silver Black Roan Tobiano
    2.34% - Silver Black Tobiano
    2.34% - Silver Perlino Roan Tobiano
    2.34% - Silver Perlino Tobiano
    2.34% - Silver Smoky Cream Roan Tobiano
    2.34% - Silver Smoky Cream Tobiano
    2.34% - Smoky Cream Roan Tobiano
    2.34% - Perlino Tobiano (Ee/Aa/CrCr or EE/Aa/CrCr) Therefore I will test for these three genes.

  • Jacqueline Kinsey Perlino I suspect. See the orangey color in tail and a bit in mane; looks identical to my Perlino. Perlino is black based if I remember right. 

  • Jacqueline Kinsey Also, blue roan and buckskin are both black based colors.
    23 minutes ago · Like · 1

  • Kristin Appleby yes and cremello is red based
    12 minutes ago · Like · 1

  • Melinda Selk Dont forget that smokey cream is also a black based double dilute. Dont want to completely dismiss it since it is a possibility if neither parent passed agouti onto the colt. (see my first post).
    11 minutes ago · Like · 1

  • Leia Gibson And both parents _might_ have passed on recessive red genes if they're not homozygous for black so a red-based double dilute is genetically not out of the question.

 Some genetic traits are now obvious:
Fancy Pants has the black gene (E/?), the cremello gene (Cr/?), the tobiano gene (T/?) and may have Agouti (A/?).
GrapeNuts has cremello, tobiano (T/T - pretty sure).
One or both may have silver?

Graham is definitely has tobiano (T/?) and at least cream (Cr/?).
He will be tested for the following:
Cremello, Agouti, Silver. Say tuned for any answer.